In this episode of the B2B Marketing Methods podcast, host Terri Hoffman, CEO of Marketing Refresh, meets with Sherron Washington, a Professor, Chief Executive Officer, and Non-Profit Founder. Whether you’re a seasoned marketer or new to the field, this episode provides valuable tips, strategies, and real-world examples to enhance your B2B marketing efforts.
They discuss demystifying digital marketing for B2B companies. Sherron shares her insights from her extensive marketing journey and how she combines academic knowledge with practical experience.
Topics discussed include the importance of treating B2B clients like B2C, the split roles of marketing and sales, budgeting for marketing, leveraging social media, and the significance of building and nurturing relationships.
Sherron also talks about her nonprofit, Discovering Butterflies, which mentors young women to find their paths and achieve their goals.
Topics Discussed:
- treating B2B clients like B2C
- split roles of marketing and sales
- budgeting for marketing
- social media
- building and nurturing relationships
To learn more about Sherron, connect with her on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/ceop3/
To connect with Marketing Refresh, visit: MarketingRefresh.com
Full Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Terri Hoffman: Welcome to B2B Marketing Methods. I’m your host, Terri Hoffman, and I’m the CEO of Marketing Refresh. Let’s face it, embracing digital marketing is daunting. This podcast was created to make it more approachable. Join me as we talk to CEOs, sales leaders, and revenue growth experts who will share lessons learned and tips from their own journeys.
[00:00:24]
[00:00:24] Terri Hoffman: Welcome today to another episode of B2B marketing methods. Welcome to everybody. I’m really glad you’ve tuned in to listen. I have a really special guest with us here today. Her name is Sherron Washington. Welcome Sherron. Thank you for joining us.
[00:00:38] Sherron Washington: Hello. Hello, hello Terri! Thanks for having me.
[00:00:41] Terri Hoffman: You’re welcome. I hope everybody’s really like gotten a really strong cup of coffee next to them because Sherron is going to bring a lot of energy. She is not really known to be, a low-key person. She’s going to bring some energy today and I’m really looking forward to this conversation. Seeing what we can share with our listeners today.
[00:00:58] Terri Hoffman: I met Sherron because I personally went through the Goldman Sachs 10K SB program. It’s a really cool program that Goldman Sachs delivers through an endowment fund that they have. And the whole intention behind it is to help small businesses grow. It helps fuel the economy, helps create jobs.
[00:01:16] Terri Hoffman: And so that’s a pretty cool investment. They take you through really like a full kind of mini MBA program that has a great curriculum design behind it and I was fortunate enough to go through the marketing section with Sherron. And going in, I’m thinking, what am I possibly going to learn in this, right?
[00:01:35] Terri Hoffman: I’ve got a marketing agency, but it was so insightful, so helpful. I learned a ton from her and I’m really excited that the audience gets to know her a little, a little bit more today. She wears multiple hats. Not only does she have like a very diverse wardrobe and a pair of glasses for every occasion, she also has that many career paths, and so I’d love it if we could start there. Let’s start by kind of talking about all the different places that you take your background in marketing, marketing strategy, all of your expertise in that area, and how do you kind of infuse that into the world? Let’s start there.
[00:02:15] Sherron Washington: So I am fortunate to be in an industry that communication actually marries with marketing. I got my degree in communication and I’m actually a professor at Trinity Washington University and Temple University, and I teach in their communication departments.
[00:02:37] Sherron Washington: Over 18 years. So at Trinity, which is my alum, I’m an alum of Trinity Washington. I’ve taught in so many different areas, from marketing to communication, and what happened is my career path took me into marketing. So it went from PR to marketing. So ‘06, I started a business in marketing.
[00:03:00] Sherron Washington: I had a degree in graphic design. So I said, let me try this out, and they marry well together. And so I’ve taken my expertise and I built my company, the P3 solution, and then I still teach. So what happens is each place that I planted, it actually is a seed to sow, to grow in other areas. So I have marketing stuff that I can share in class.
[00:03:31] Sherron Washington: I speak so I can share that stuff that I learned in class and turn theory and practice to my speaking things. So I’ve been very fortunate to actually be in a place where both things kind of fuse really well.
[00:03:47] Terri Hoffman: Yeah, no, I agree. Because you have all those different experiences, I think from what I observed of you that day, and having gotten to know you a little bit better over the coming months is, because you look at things from so many different perspectives, you’re able to really put yourself in that kind of marketing owners shoes very well because you’re looking at it like how would you staff this? How would I budget for it? How would I get my message in front of the right audience? You just have a really diverse background in skill sets and knowledge areas that I think really applies today and the world has become more and more complicated, right?
[00:04:28] Sherron Washington: It is very complicated, especially within marketing.
[00:04:31] Terri Hoffman: Yeah, and then AI just made it that much more fun. There’s always something new around the corner, but.
[00:04:36] Sherron Washington: Always something new around the corner.
[00:04:38] Terri Hoffman: Yeah. so, and I, I’m going to tell my listeners, she only touched on some of the things. As we get into this conversation, I’m going to kind of reveal some more things that she’s got going on that are very interesting.
[00:04:49] Terri Hoffman: You’re just a really generous person. And I think that’s awesome.
[00:04:51] Sherron Washington: Thank you so much.
[00:04:52] Terri Hoffman: It’s also icing on the cake. So let’s talk about when you talk to somebody who owns the marketing budget and has that responsibility, particularly on the B2B world, what are some things that you advise them to do to just kind of get started for the first time in the world of marketing? Like, how can they get the ball rolling?
[00:05:14] Sherron Washington: So the first thing I try to get my B2B clients to understand is they’re no different from B2C.
[00:05:22] Sherron Washington: The client is actually a person that runs a company of some sort. So, when we split it up, one difference of B2B and B2C is that there’s an RFP, a proposal of some sort in the middle. Other than that, it’s the same kind of mindset of how would I sell to this customer?
[00:05:46] Sherron Washington: The customer just happens to be responsible for probably multiple, thousands of units or hundreds of thousands of units to either be bought or to be sold. So the first thing I often tell my B2B people is to change your mindset and think of it as B2C and it becomes much more easier because when you think B2B, we’re thinking that the process is so complex, right?
[00:06:15] Sherron Washington: It’s so complex as business to business because we have these so many pieces and really there’s only one piece other than the proposal, and maybe you have to go through one or two different people to talk to. But other than that, it is really person to person and kind of getting that. So the other thing that, and I think I told you guys this during the program is that understanding the difference from marketing and sales.
[00:06:43] Sherron Washington: So I have this little saying that I say, PR gets you seen, marketing gets you leads, sales gets you paid. So to understand, especially when we’re talking to B2B, my B2B clients usually have even teams of one and two of marketing, but also sales teams. Say dividing the responsibility of what marketing is supposed to do versus what sales is supposed to contribute to the process so that you can grow.
[00:07:15] Sherron Washington: So, those are 2 really starting points for B2B owners that I believe that they need to know. Kind of understanding what they’re doing and what’s the purpose of the marketing versus sales. And then to understand that really it’s a B2C, it’s a customer you’re selling or buying from a customer.
[00:07:36] Terri Hoffman: So even if you have multiple people involved in the decision making process, you have to think about them in their individual roles and then think about what’s going to be their pain points.
[00:07:48] Terri Hoffman: What’s going to influence their decisions just as if they were a consumer, because they’re people, right?
[00:07:53] Terri Hoffman: The two areas you just talked about, that’s about mindset, right? That’s making sure that you’re in the right mindset as you begin the marketing process so that you’ve got yourself focused in the right way and you’ve got the right mindset going into it,
[00:08:07] Terri Hoffman: and I think that’s really important. And I mean, I really emphasize that because I think for so long certain parts of the B2B space, especially like manufacturing and industrial businesses, they’re very sales driven companies and organizations, right? Rightfully so, you have to have sales in order to, what was your phrase?
[00:08:27] Terri Hoffman: Make the money.
[00:08:28] Sherron Washington: You need sales to get paid, but you also need to talk to people in order to sell to people, right? I don’t think companies often split the two. So they hire marketers with the idea of selling. Marketers don’t sell.
[00:08:44] Sherron Washington: In fact, statistically, the marketing department is the first thing that people believe they should get rid of because we spend money. Marketing is a spending function, sales is a profit function. And if you split the two and understand that you’re buying people to talk to, that’s your ROI in marketing.
[00:09:05] Sherron Washington: So that’s sometimes difficult to swallow because you’re going, well, I’m hiring a marketer to get me sales. You’re hiring them to get you conversation so you can set your sales people up to sell. That’s what you’re hiring marketing people for.
[00:09:19] Terri Hoffman: Yeah. I, okay. That’s great. That’s a, such a simple way to break it down.
[00:09:23] Terri Hoffman: Because I think it’s very easy to take something that is simple at its core and have it become probably more complicated than it needs to be. Especially, when you’re just looking to get started or take some of those first steps, you know? So what about the development of just a budget, how would you advise?
[00:09:46] Terri Hoffman: So let’s say I’ve done a little bit, right? Like I’ve at least built a website so that I have an online presence. I’ve got our products and services described. We have that core sales tool, but what about kind of expanding beyond that and thinking, all right, what are some things that I should be looking at or considering in terms of putting together a marketing budget?
[00:10:09] Sherron Washington: No one wants to spend money on marketing, probably even marketers, probably you and I, Terri, we don’t, we don’t want to spend. I start from the sales piece. Like thinking about, how many people do you need to sell to get to your sales goal? So how many people or companies? How many contracts, how many deals do you have to sign to make your quota or make your money? Now, what that says is that you’re going to need eight times as many leads for you to even get that amount of sales. So, I think that when you think about your marketing budget, you want to think about how much are you willing to pay for a conversation because that’s what your marketing ROI should be. That you’ve had a meeting, right?
[00:11:02] Sherron Washington: When I think about my business contracts, the contracts that I have for my company, I think about all of the flights I’ve had, or the meals I’ve had to do. All of that is marketing. All of that goes into your marketing budget. So the number that they say is 5 to 20 percent of your revenue should go to marketing.
[00:11:24] Sherron Washington: And it’s just, I think it’s like investing, you know, the more risk you take, the more reward, right? If we take an example of a large corporation like Coca Cola, and if I think about, the Super Bowl, and when they have ads, those ads never say buy Coke. They’re not, because they’re marketing ads.
[00:11:48] Sherron Washington: They’re there to provide leads and they’re paying millions of dollars. So their ROI is not the million dollars that they spent. It is the activity that happens. So with the budget, you want to think about, how much do you need to spend to get the leads that you want.
[00:12:11] Sherron Washington: Are you willing to spend $10 of marketing on each person? So you go, what’s that, 20,000? Am I getting that right, 20,000?
[00:12:18] Terri Hoffman: Yeah. I’m in marketing. I need a spreadsheet to plug those numbers into. So essentially start with the end in mind.
[00:12:24] Terri Hoffman: Think about what your ultimate revenue goal is or your sales goal, and then work back from that to how many conversations is it going to take to get to that. And then, how many different people do I need to get in front of to get those conversations to happen. Right. So again, very simple, right? It’s it if, if in execution, it was only this simple, but as far as like putting a framework together, though, this is really, in my opinion, how simple you’ve got to make things so that you don’t get in your own way.
[00:12:55] Terri Hoffman: I think it’s very easy to get in your own way. It’s scary, right? To invest in something when you’re not a hundred percent sure what the outcome is going to be. But one thing that I’ve learned about the market, especially with the way people like Gen X and Gen Y, they’re getting older.
[00:13:11] Terri Hoffman: They’re making decisions now in the B2B world. They’re old enough to control the budgets and make the purchasing decisions and they want the conveniences that they experience in their consumer lives. They want those same experiences when they’re being marketed to.
[00:13:27] Sherron Washington: And I don’t want the companies to do the mistake of comparison.
[00:13:32] Sherron Washington: Well, this business, when we do the same amount of revenue, I should be spending X amount of dollars as they are or none, because sometimes I hear my clients go, yeah, I just do referrals. And I go, well, when they dry up, do you have a plan? No, we’ll get to that when, it hasn’t happened in 25 years, 30 years.
[00:13:54] Sherron Washington: But as you and I know, the market is volatile. So it could change at any moment. I think understanding your customer segments and how to build relationships once you understand the budget, where to use your budget, it’s actually nurturing those relationships that are going to get you those contracts you want.
[00:14:18] Terri Hoffman: So what are some ways that you can find out. Let’s say, all right, I’ve got my budget set. I kind of know what my numbers are that I’m aiming for. And I, now I need to identify that target profile, right? My ideal customer profile, and then figure out how am I going to reach them?
[00:14:36] Terri Hoffman: Like how, how do I get in front of them? What are some methods or some things that you could do to figure those things out, get those answers?
[00:14:45] Sherron Washington: Here’s something I do that has worked. I always talk about closing on social media, especially LinkedIn, 70 percent of the time. Right?
[00:14:56] Sherron Washington: So what I would do is actually go to LinkedIn, build out my segment. If I’m trying to reach you, Terri, and someone else knows you, instead of me going, hey, let’s connect. I’m going to go, hey, one of your friends, do you know Terri? Can you introduce me to Terri? I’m trying to do something new to introduce us to see where I could develop the relationship. That marketing cycle, although maybe I won’t get a contract with you for another 12 months. It could be six months, depending on your needs, right?
[00:15:32] Sherron Washington: Sowing those seeds, and it may seem like many of my business owners are like, that just seems so tedious. How else are you going to get to know people, right? So I’m going high level to high level to work that out. And if they go, Hey, I’m interested, then I can pass that along to my sales or business development.
[00:15:56] Sherron Washington: Like, okay, well, I’m going to have you talk to Sherron who’s going to now help you with how to execute. But really, I think that our marketing salespeople, your CMOs, your VPs, you really need to start developing relationships, buying relationships, that’s not selling. And I know that sounds like an oxymoron, but really in this marketplace, cause it’s so saturated, it’s who, you know, like, and trust.
[00:16:28] Terri Hoffman: Right. Oh, absolutely. You know, it’s interesting because, everything that you just described is exactly what we advise our clients to do. And do you know what happened to me personally? About a year ago, I looked at my LinkedIn connections and realized. I’m not even connected in LinkedIn to the market that is so important to me.
[00:16:53] Terri Hoffman: And because it’s who we target for clients, that I’ve got to get connected there, not just for the reason to sell and build that relationship, but also to learn and listen, right? And so that’s another, added benefit of using those LinkedIn connections is you can then see what people are talking about and that’s where you start to learn the things they’re talking about and thinking about. These are the types of comments. These are the types of other people they’re following so that you get a lot of insight about the things that they’re trying to learn about and where they’re trying to grow and build.
[00:17:27] Sherron Washington: Absolutely.
[00:17:27] Sherron Washington: And you can establish yourself as a thought leader in that space, which makes it easier to be able to then have that conversation. This happened last week. I reached out to a large organization.
[00:17:39] Sherron Washington: I was like, Hey, so you’re looking for a keynote. Oh, yeah, we were going to contact you because we already know who you are. And while that is a big ego boost, that just speaks volumes to me nurturing these relationships because, you know, people could be saying I’m trash, but fortunately, they’re not.
[00:18:00] Terri Hoffman: Give me their names if they’re saying that I need to have a talk with them. No, they’re not saying that. You really do use LinkedIn.
[00:18:06] Terri Hoffman: I’ll give the audience an example. So if Sherron makes a post and I comment on it or like it, she immediately engages with me. We know each other, right? But, on some level, I mean, we’ve never discussed this, but on some level, she’s probably thinking I want to nurture my relationship with Terri because, hey, she could have a client who wants me to speak down the road.
[00:18:28] Terri Hoffman: She could be involved in my nonprofit, which we haven’t talked about yet, but there could be multiple opportunities, or I may end up knowing someone who needs to know you. And you are very committed to nurturing those relationships when someone engages with you.
[00:18:44] Terri Hoffman: And I think that’s, I I’m complimenting you, but I’m also using that as an example that the audience I think can learn from.
[00:18:51] Sherron Washington: The apprehension, apprehensive part of that is probably time. I get that it’s time consuming. I am a VP. I am a CMO. I have things to do. Well, just like that conversation that you’re having, carve out 30 minutes and kind of go through.
[00:19:09] Sherron Washington: We should be in a strategy space, and so part of this is kind of understanding to your point, Terri, what does the marketplace want, so that I can be able to direct the strategy in the right way to actually pour in those leads.
[00:19:25] Sherron Washington: Volume is hard to get these days. Volume of customers. Difficult, I guess that’s why pricing keeps going up. I’m pretty sure that’s a macro economic thing that I can’t explain. Yes, but prices are going up.
[00:19:41] Terri Hoffman: They are and that is happening in the market now. I guess on a on a little bit of a tangent is because it’s hard to get a high volume and in a B2B industrial manufacturing space, you might be selling a six figure or possibly even a seven figure sale or product. And so keeping that business and then nurturing and growing that relationship, maybe that person would move to another company and be in a similar type procurement role, or maybe they would have a new project that pops up and you’ve got to stay in top. Build that relationship and expand upon it as well.
[00:20:17] Terri Hoffman: Right?
[00:20:17] Sherron Washington: Yes. I didn’t even think of that way. But yes, that has happened with me with some training opportunities. My COO has gone to another space and she’s like, yeah, and we want to hire you again, but for this company. So yes.
[00:20:33] Terri Hoffman: Yea. That happens. So keeping that relationship active is important.
[00:20:37] Terri Hoffman: What about picking marketing resources, right? This is huge and very hard. Something I’ve seen change, I mean, I’m 30 years into my marketing career now. A lot has changed, but one of the big ones that changed is we went from traditional marketing where there was no internet, right?
[00:20:55] Terri Hoffman: Pre internet.
[00:20:56] Sherron Washington: Fax machine. Do you remember that? You faxed the ad out.
[00:20:59] Terri Hoffman: Definitely. There was that phase of my career. There’s like pre internet and post internet. Very clear line. Yes. when that clear line happened and we made that transition, all of these other skills became necessary, right? So how do you determine when you’re getting this all underway,
[00:21:16] Terri Hoffman: like, what are the resources that are important to begin? And what do I need to look at in sourcing, outsourcing? How do I build this capability?
[00:21:25] Sherron Washington: You don’t need to know everything. You don’t need to know how to do everything, but you need to know how to get people who need to know how to do those things.
[00:21:35] Sherron Washington: So I think the resource is in the people that you select to do what you need to do. Oftentimes, businesses find that they need to be in the know of shiny objects. So I’ll give you an example. So pre pandemic video became very popular. I think during the pandemic we went to short form video and things like that. Companies go, I need to do this immediately, but you haven’t understood what the other pieces, your social media, your content, you haven’t mastered that. So, my thought about resources is one, get away from shiny objects, so every new thing you don’t have to participate in to be successful.
[00:22:30] Sherron Washington: Two, choose resources that are going to help you with your goal in the moment, because, as you and I know, Terri, the information changes. Probably it’s changing right now as we speak the social media algorithm is probably changing, but also yesterday this platform was hot, tomorrow another platform will be the place to be. So kind of understanding what you need in the moment, and a moment could be 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, two weeks, but I think what’s important with that, to fuse that or to bring that all together is that stop creating marketing plans for years, or a year.
[00:23:20] Sherron Washington: I think it should be for a project because the marketplace flip flops. So, use resources that will be notable for you in the moment and stop this kind of, you know, one failed swoop kind of thing.
[00:23:39] Terri Hoffman: How do you know it’s time to make a change or add add something new in? What are some signs you could be looking for?
[00:23:47] Sherron Washington: Oh, perfect. So you have numbers and you have expectations. And let’s just say you did a 90 day plan and you said, we want to have 1000 leads in 90 days and 30 days has passed and you have three. How likely within the next 60 days will you get what is that 997?
[00:24:07] Sherron Washington: You could split a thousand into 12 weeks, and on average, if in the two weeks, you’re not getting the average sales or leads that you’re supposed to be getting, it’s time to do a change.
[00:24:17] Sherron Washington: So change happens, right? It can happen immediately. So let’s say if you’re used to LinkedIn and your plan is to have 10 calls a week and you’re only getting three calls a week, then you gotta bump up your calls or you gotta scrap that because you know you don’t have time to do it.
[00:24:34] Sherron Washington: So it’s a time to assess it. Could be a week. Could be two weeks, but I wouldn’t wait until you go through the whole process and then try it all over again, right? Yeah, because you may be dejected.
[00:24:47] Terri Hoffman: Yeah, and you could look for maybe some iterative changes like hey, maybe our call to action was out of line or we didn’t really describe the value of why we wanted them to call well. So, maybe looking at even some small changes that could be adjusted if you’re not tracking to the end result you wanted in that time period can help you.
[00:25:13] Terri Hoffman: Right. But like you said, try to find somebody who knows how to oversee that area, and then they know who to bring in for each different purpose is really important. We just see a lot in our market that there is like a vice president of sales put in charge of marketing.
[00:25:29] Terri Hoffman: And all of a sudden they’re thinking, well, that’s great, but I haven’t gotten an opportunity in my career to really learn how the marketing function works, like what makes it right. I’ve worked with that function, but I’ve never managed that function and so kind of making that first hire is important.
[00:25:49] Terri Hoffman: And that’s, you gave, given some really good keys to keep in mind there and then how to work alongside that person that should build into a department, I think is, is also really important. I just see a lot of times people hire somebody who is probably very talented, but maybe is entry level. And then there is uncertainty about how to guide.
[00:26:12] Sherron Washington: Well, well, because I think many companies move into tactics first, but they haven’t thought about that end goal of sales or how many people will realistically get me to sales and then go even behind that. How do I talk to these people who will then get me sales? They go straight to, you know what this company down the street is doing this thing, so I’m gonna do this thing without even understanding their target segment. Right. So you can’t, you can’t really properly guide anyone if you’re just having them do tactics. I see the trend is a lot of people getting hired for their ability to be creative and to design, but not to strategize.
[00:27:00] Terri Hoffman: Right. Yeah, and that it it’s tough for that person to really shine with the great skills they have, unless it’s connected to some type of a strategy. And I see that and I, that frustrates me for the person running that area because now you have something that could have gone really well, but it might’ve been misguided and you didn’t get what you wanted in charge of the revenue generation.
[00:27:23] Terri Hoffman: The person who took the job did a great job, but it was misguided maybe. And then the owner, or the person that owns the budget, it could be an investor. It could be the owner. It’s like, what just happened to all of that money I spent in that area?
[00:27:35] Sherron Washington: You marketers are horrible. I hear that all the time.
[00:27:39] Terri Hoffman: Oh, for sure. And guess what? There’s a lot of really bad marketers out there.
[00:27:44] Terri Hoffman: Just like every field, right? There are people who don’t have the proper approach and ability to build that strategy.
[00:27:50] Terri Hoffman: That’s tough. I call that kind of taking over for a bad boyfriend. When we have a client who had a bad experience, I’m like, Oh, well, we’re going to have to come in and teach you what a good boyfriend should be.
[00:28:02] Terri Hoffman: I guess what other areas do you commonly get asked about?
[00:28:06] Terri Hoffman: The reason I connected with you during the session you led in New York is because it’s like every topic you jump to, I was like, these are all the things that we get asked about, you know, all of the time. And it doesn’t matter if it’s my neighbor down the street who owns a restaurant, that’s not our market, but I get asked by those people all the time, just as personal favors, or if it’s somebody who is in our target market, they have the same questions, right?
[00:28:35] Terri Hoffman: How do I budget for this? How do I get started? How do I find the right resources? What are some other big things that you get asked a lot that I maybe haven’t covered?
[00:28:45] Sherron Washington: How much money should I spend in social media? Should I? I get that question, that question I get a lot and I tell them, I don’t spend any ad money on social media, but it does take me time.
[00:29:06] Sherron Washington: So, I am still factoring my time as a cost to use in social media. There’s some industries, some companies who have high success, just posting ads using social media. So I’m not suggesting that you shouldn’t, I’m going to tell you, do you have the capacity and, and are your customers clearly there because you shouldn’t be doing maybe marketing. It shouldn’t be maybe this will happen if I do this. So sample it, give as much money as you would as a sample, no foul, no, no harm, no foul and see if it works for you in the spaces.
[00:29:51] Sherron Washington: I read an article and I wish I would have been able to give you the title, cause it’s a good article, where Gen Xers are the most consumers of social media, where Gen Z, Millennials and Gen Zs are not. They use it, but they don’t consume.
[00:30:11] Sherron Washington: That has since changed, right? since the inception of TikTok. So like, I would say if you’re a manufacturer, you may not find yourself while you’re on TikTok. You could be on TikTok because you’re trending for, say, employees. So think outside the box on how to use social media in different ways and not just think I should throw money to ads.
[00:30:44] Sherron Washington: I guess that’s where I’m getting to. So if you’re thinking you should throw money to ads, I’m gonna tell you to rethink that and think how you can better use social media to kind of either build your visibility or build some type of lead generation.
[00:31:00] Terri Hoffman: Well, and you said something, about employees too.
[00:31:05] Terri Hoffman: So there are a lot of industrial companies that they’re competing right for employees. And so, showing more about your company culture and what’s going on, what it’s like to work there, what kind of projects you’re going to work on, using social media to do that can be really valuable. Like that’s a different type of marketing investment or communication strategy.
[00:31:26] Terri Hoffman: Your goal might not be building your brand and getting conversations for sales. It might be getting conversations for your HR team or your recruiter to get better quality employees.
[00:31:37] Sherron Washington: Have you seen this? And I’m all about fun. There is A TikTok, page that I follow on HR.
[00:31:44] Sherron Washington: I’m not even in HR, but it gives me ideas about marketing. The two guys singing about.
[00:31:49] Terri Hoffman: I love that.
[00:31:50] Terri Hoffman: Yes. Well probably ’cause it’s like our music too. They’re always doing a song where I’m like, yes, I remember dancing to that. Yes, back when I could dance and not look like an idiot, but yeah.
[00:32:03] Sherron Washington: You can dance, no, we still got it. So, I look at that and I get ideas like, how could I do that for marketing, right? Like they will be a hit at conferences to open up conferences. We have to think about our target segment. Again, they’re active individuals or active companies that short attention spans, lots of deadlines.
[00:32:35] Sherron Washington: How do we attract them? So, it may not always be in the ad because I always pose this question. How likely is it for you as a company to buy services from somebody who just post an ad on Facebook? It’s not likely. It’s not likely.
[00:32:58] Terri Hoffman: Yeah. The way we’ve seen those kind of ads work is just, you know, it might take 10 to 15 touch points from marketing to really build that awareness and get people to remember who you are and connect the dots on it. So, I think it can be part of an overall strategy, but it would be very tough to argue that any type of social media ad got you the customer is right. Immediately. Yeah immediately.
[00:33:24] Terri Hoffman: That’s a Good add on word there. Yeah. I mean, your salesperson is going to get you the business, right?
[00:33:33] Sherron Washington: Yes, so that’s my take on it. And that’s why I like to be in marketing because it’s pressuring me to say, hey, here’s the conversation.
[00:33:43] Sherron Washington: Salespeople do your magic.
[00:33:45] Terri Hoffman: Okay. Well, that brings up a different topic that I love to talk about. How do you have that conversation between the people who are doing their magic and bringing in the money and those of us over here who look like we’re just having all kinds of fun every day, right? Marketing is actually can be pretty stressful.
[00:34:04] Terri Hoffman: We’re not curing cancer. We’re not saving lives or anything over here, but we do have to make sure that we’re serving the salespeople and that we’re supporting them. So how do you, what are some things that you see that make that relationship successful so that there’s good communication in place?
[00:34:21] Sherron Washington: You need a whistle and a black and white shirt and some signals on. So, it is establishing the lane from the beginning. It is going, here is where you stop and we begin. What I think happens on both sides of the spectrum is, I see how I could do your job better. Maybe formulate it to, here’s how you can help me with my job.
[00:34:56] Sherron Washington: It’s a change in mindset about the purpose of both sides. You’re both needed. Marketing and sales, both of those departments are needed. I firmly believe that. Like, as a marketer, I’d like to keep the conversation going, I’m building the relationship. Whereas the salesperson is going I need to build the relationship because you’re not going to sell. You’re just going to keep on making it fun. It’s kind of saying, here’s where your job stops and my job begins and making hard stops on that. After you’ve had this third call and you think they’re ready to get sold, it’s time to bring them to me. Or second call, even first call.
[00:35:42] Sherron Washington: So if you have your first or second touch point, send them on to me.
[00:35:46] Terri Hoffman: Yeah. Boy, that’s getting harder and harder. I love that. Because again, if you create a framework for it, now you have something to start with, but you can also be better at deciding when there’s like, no, this particular situation I need you to stay involved longer than what our standard is. It’s easier then to use that as the starting point and then figure out from there, but I’m seeing those lines get more and more blurred every day now they really cross over, going to a conference or an event is a great example.
[00:36:18] Terri Hoffman: You have, okay, the marketing department’s going to secure the booth space. They’re going to pick it. They’re going to set up the booth. They’re going to make sure all the flyers and cards and all that stuff gets shipped there on time, right? But now if the people who are coming into the booth don’t have time to talk to the salesperson, they didn’t engage. How are you, how are you following up on that? Is that solely up to the salesperson?
[00:36:43] Sherron Washington: The marketing piece is that there has to be a launch party of some sort, right? This is what we’re sending out. Here’s the message based on this particular segment. It’s about having the freedom for both. Here’s the messaging that we’ve come up with. You can use it in any way you choose to. You need to be more creative. I think what happens is marketers become territorial.
[00:37:10] Sherron Washington: I understand this. We’ve been, both of us are close to 30 years in this space, right? We’re very territorial. Why didn’t you use the message the way I did? It’s this, it’s the, not and, right? And instead, kind of going, here’s, use it the way you want to, be creative.
[00:37:33] Sherron Washington: The problem comes with the return on investment.
[00:37:38] Sherron Washington: So, what I think the return on investment should be for marketers is, how many leads you brought in, right, with the messaging that you have and not being able to be told because this pointing fingers this way we didn’t sell because your messaging didn’t make sense and we didn’t sell because you don’t know how to sell this messaging. That’s the, that’s the core problem, but it needs to be we are here to get you leads.
[00:38:12] Sherron Washington: So this piece is going to get people in your space. We’re going to count how many people, this beautiful booth got, got people to come. That’s our success, marketing. Your success is how many sales calls you got. You have to find spaces where one stops and one begins so that you can count or have ROI based on your position, if that makes sense.
[00:38:42] Terri Hoffman: No, it, it completely does. I can’t, I think there are still a high percentage of companies that don’t even have that conversation at the beginning, right? And so then everybody’s very wrapped up in their own area, what they think is their own area. And then you get there and you haven’t established those ground rules or those boundaries or those rules.
[00:39:02] Terri Hoffman: I had a guest on maybe a month or so ago and I loved, he told me the way he engages with his marketing team. And I was like, okay, maybe not the way I would have advised, but it doesn’t matter because it works for them. Yes. It works for them and it’s successful. And no matter where you see those lines crossing, there’s a lot of gray area in there. There’s so many lines getting blurred. There’s so much crossover and roles. Really, it kind of doesn’t matter at the end of the day, as long as you’ve defined them, you discuss them, you’re clear on them and if they work for you, then do it.
[00:39:40] Sherron Washington: I also think it takes, it takes stress.
[00:39:43] Sherron Washington: So as a marketer, I don’t have to think about the ROI or ROI of did it sell. I no longer have to think about that. I did my job, right? But if marketing and sales could find a way to actually collaborate and compromise. And I think the question is always going to be, what do you need for me to help you succeed? On both ends.
[00:40:09] Sherron Washington: If that is the question that you have in the ending and starting point. Okay, so I have this. Does this messaging help you do what you need to do? We need to sell to this type of customer to do this, right? Does this help? I think both parties will feel included in the process. Now, everything isn’t always perfect, but they’ll feel included in the process and it’s a collaborative effort. And then they’ll know here, you know, here’s my goal. Well, I need to get five sales call. So, I need this to have at least 15, 20 people are attracted to this so that I can be able to sell this for my sales call.
[00:40:52] Terri Hoffman: Yeah. No, I love that. I felt like a little bit of the therapy there when you said both teams need, both sides need to collaborate because that is what it comes down to.
[00:41:02] Terri Hoffman: and that collaboration just needs to work the way that it works, to work for you.
[00:41:06] Sherron Washington: However it works. I would even say in companies just asking, where do you want the line to begin for you? Because that it could be you want me to get the sales calls for you, and then I just give you the sales calls and you do your magic. But it’s still very measurable.
[00:41:24] Terri Hoffman: Right, and clear. It’s measurable. Exactly, and it, a lot of that can evolve with the company, depending on the skill sets you have on the team, right? You might have this great closer on the sales team and hey, make sure that person can spend as much time closing as possible then.
[00:41:40] Terri Hoffman: You might have another person who’s great at that kind of nurturing educational stage of the sales process, then. Get them in there, right? Like build on those strengths, play on them.
[00:41:52] Sherron Washington: Well, you might have someone who are so crafty that they can build out the vision.
[00:41:56] Sherron Washington: So you just tell them the vision. They are good with kind of talking to people, but they can create a vision.
[00:42:04] Terri Hoffman: No, I love that. Well, wow. We covered a lot. It felt like five minutes past and it was a lot more than that.
[00:42:13] Terri Hoffman: I have like a few fun questions I always ask at the end.
[00:42:15] Sherron Washington: Go ahead, yes.
[00:42:17] Terri Hoffman: The first one is, um, do you find yourself, like, is there a book you have read in your life or that you just read recently that you just find yourself recommending?
[00:42:27] Sherron Washington: Yes, Poised for Excellence by Karima Mayama Arthur. Now, she is actually my unofficial mentor. She’s a very good friend of mine, like a sister but her book, even if she wasn’t, changed my elevation game tenfold. Um, it is a leadership book about how you poise yourself for excellence.
[00:42:58] Sherron Washington: And it talks about leadership in very different ways. It’s a very easy read. It’s a space where you can pull things out like it’s, and this isn’t even like, it’s right here. Okay. So it’s a, it’s a very easy read. Um, it’s motivational, it has affirmations in it, but it also has exercises and information that is poignant.
[00:43:26] Terri Hoffman: Okay.
[00:43:28] Terri Hoffman: I love that. All right, good. This is like my little hack for building my reading list, by the way.
[00:43:33] Sherron Washington: Oh, no worries. No, you, you want to get this one. You want to, and I’ll get it signed for you if you,
[00:43:37] Terri Hoffman: Oh, yeah, that’d be awesome. Especially since she’s a friend and, and all that. Yeah, no, I’ll. Okay. So I’ll look that one up.
[00:43:44] Terri Hoffman: My next question is what’s like your favorite trip that you’ve ever taken?
[00:43:50] Sherron Washington: Italy 2022. I went to Banale Arte, um, me and my best friend went on a girls trip. Uh, my husband didn’t wanna go, he said no.
[00:44:01] Sherron Washington: Like we, what? We went.
[00:44:03] Terri Hoffman: Okay. Well, I’m going.
[00:44:04] Sherron Washington: I know! We went Rome, Florence, and Venice.
[00:44:08] Sherron Washington: We get into Venice. No plans. Arte, Arte Banale, and I’m probably messing it up, but it’s contemporary art. It is acres of like, they have many pavilions for each country with contemporary art. It just so happened the US put their first Black woman installation in this space. Her name is Simone Lee. Amazing. It was an incredible exhibit. Um, and I’m glad that we got to see it. So, Italy 2022. Italy is beautiful, by the way. Food, delicious. Italy was it. We stayed across the street from the Colosseum. Um, it was really, really nice for Italy.
[00:44:58] Terri Hoffman: Um, by the way, I just got back from Italy exactly one month ago to get today. I was just, yeah, my husband and I and our oldest daughter and her husband went there this July. It was so, it was so fun. I love it.
[00:45:13] Sherron Washington: Terri, when I see you and I know grandma’s coming, I don’t, you look so young. Yeah, I know that we’re in the same area, but you look so young!.
[00:45:23] Terri Hoffman: Okay. Same for you when I told you I was going to become a grandmother and you were like, welcome to the club. I was like, what? How do you have a grandchild? That doesn’t even make sense to me. Yeah.
[00:45:33] Sherron Washington: Our kids are 30, 31.
[00:45:35] Terri Hoffman: Oh, okay. Yeah. Cool. Um, yeah. Italy, I totally. I, do you know what’s really kind of silly?
[00:45:43] Terri Hoffman: I loved going there so much that we left and I was like, I’m really disappointed because I just don’t think I could ever take a trip that good again. It was so fun.
[00:45:52] Sherron Washington: Look, I’m trying Spain next year, but I want to go back again to Italy. Like, Italy has to be like a regular trip, like I would Orlando or Las Vegas.
[00:46:04] Sherron Washington: That’s how much I loved it.
[00:46:06] Terri Hoffman: All right. Well, that’s very cool. Um, this’ll be a fun one. What if, if there is any musician, um, solo artist, doesn’t matter, group or soloist, dead or alive, who you could see in concert, even if you saw them before, I don’t care. Like who would that person be or group?
[00:46:29] Sherron Washington: Hmm, this is a good one.
[00:46:32] Sherron Washington: I would have said to you, in the pandemic, Michael Franks. A jazz artist, but I saw him. I checked him off my bucket list, but I’ve never seen in concert Michael Jackson.
[00:46:49] Terri Hoffman: Oh, yeah.
[00:46:50] Sherron Washington: If I could, yeah, if I could see Michael Jackson in concert, absolutely. And then I’m going to cheat a little bit, but like a medley of 80s pop, like I am a Thomas Dolby kind of ABBA kind of. If I could see kind of 80s pop. ZZ Top.
[00:47:10] Sherron Washington: Um, if I could see them all in one, Duran Duran, if I could see them all in one concert.
[00:47:17] Terri Hoffman: Yes. See, this is how you know you’re talking to somebody who grew up on MTV just like you did. Because we just watched all those videos. You named everyone. You just sit there and waited for thriller to come on when they told you it’s coming on at 10:32.
[00:47:35] Terri Hoffman: You sat there and waited 17 minutes till
[00:47:40] Terri Hoffman: thriller comes on, I waited every time. So funny. Absolutely. Yeah. Like glued, like, don’t anybody talk to me. I can’t miss this. They’ll never understand that you can’t, like, we couldn’t record anything back then.
[00:47:55] Sherron Washington: You can’t DVR it. You couldn’t. Either you saw it and you were able to talk about it at school or you didn’t.
[00:48:03] Sherron Washington: And you weren’t.
[00:48:05] Terri Hoffman: I’m going to look up Michael Franks. That is not an artist I’ve heard of. He’s a jazz musician you said?
[00:48:10] Sherron Washington: Oh, he’s a jazz musiciaan. He’s, he has to be 78 close to 80. Short guy. My friends laugh at me because it’s like elevator jazz. Have you heard of Diana Krall?
[00:48:23] Terri Hoffman: Oh, yeah.
[00:48:24] Terri Hoffman: Oh, yeah. So it’s like that.
[00:48:28] Sherron Washington: It’s like that. And so they laughed at me, but I screamed, he got on stage. I screamed like a child, uh, and the audience was singing it. He gets sold out. So he’s a really good, good time
[00:48:44] Terri Hoffman: I’ll have to check that out. So if you had to name the best job you’ve ever had, what would that be?
[00:48:52] Sherron Washington: Ooh, the best job I’ve ever had. I’m in it. I’m actually in it today.
[00:49:03] Terri Hoffman: Okay, which one, which one are you in?
[00:49:07] Sherron Washington: True, you got me. You got me.
[00:49:09] Terri Hoffman: Well, you like the diversity. You like the range.
[00:49:13] Sherron Washington: I like the range and the freedom and I like that I have everything that I want. I can be creative. There’s structure. I can be impactful. And so, what I like most probably would be teaching at Trinity. Because I’m giving back to a population that, honestly, I went back to school when I was in my late 20s, so like 20, 29, and I had had a child.
[00:49:43] Sherron Washington: And so, I went back to school, and I wasn’t a traditional student, and it helped me find my voice. The school helped me find my voice. So, to give it back and seeing the young people get there. They’re like, Oh, Professor Washington, we love you. We want to be you. I like your style. I like what you do. To them finding their voice actually makes me happy.
[00:50:11] Terri Hoffman: Yeah. It sounds like it’s brought it full circle for you and your purpose in that, in that role. What, maybe that’s a good segue to, to have you talk about your nonprofit that you’ve created. I really want you to talk about that.
[00:50:26] Sherron Washington: So, as I was building my business and coming into the ranks of all these things, I had no path. There was no director. So there’s nobody to say, hey, come Sherron, this is the way you go. You want to do this? This is what you should do. And I find that teaching, I teach young women, minority women, like all types of women, I’ll teach at Trinity. It’s predominantly women’s school. And I noticed that they didn’t have strategy either and no one is saying, here, you can be everything you want to be. You just need to be able to pass, to streamline it out. On top of having barriers, economic, domestic violence, etc, etc, right? Barriers to getting to where you need to go. I was like, let me create this nonprofit organization called Discovering Butterflies, and it’s two-fold.
[00:51:22] Sherron Washington: It’s actually an adjective and a verb. So we’re always, we, ourselves are always discovering butterflies. So we’re always discovering, always trying to find our path and the organization actually discovers butterflies. So we take them through this 12 week step of identity and building strategy and then mentor matching that helps them open doors to get to where they need to go to.
[00:51:48] Sherron Washington: So they have to be in between the ages of 18 to 25. Because I think that that is the space where we decide that they could do whatever they want. We’re like, they got it. They have to apply. Um, it’s national, so it’s just not in my local space. Um, it’s a virtual program, for now. Our first cohort starts in October, but I’ve already been working with these young women at school, so I just know this is going to be great. Um, our first mentor is Angela Scott.
[00:52:21] Sherron Washington: She is the owner of the office of Angela Scott, a million dollar shoe company on the west coast. She is one of our mentors. Um, and the mentors, they open doors. So this is not one of those programs where you’re just going to meet a mentor and it’s like, hi. No, they’re going to really help you and provide opportunities for you to get where you need to go.
[00:52:44] Terri Hoffman: So I love that.
[00:52:47] Sherron Washington: Yeah, I built it, I love it.
[00:52:49] Terri Hoffman: How do you, so it’s going to be, uh, like there’s a curriculum involved with bringing them through the program. What do you, what does your curriculum focus on? Like what are kind of some of the points?
[00:53:00] Sherron Washington: So identity, um, strategy, setting. So understanding. So we go from developing who I am, resume, they get a makeover, all types of stuff, whoever they are.
[00:53:15] Sherron Washington: So we have, yes. Um, and so then we move into more of building this strategy. So it’s all these four phases of a butterfly from cocoon to actually flight. Right, got it. So, and they may not complete what they will complete. They’ll end with the result of having a executable strategy. So they may not complete what they have to do in 12 weeks, because it could be different types of things,
[00:53:46] Sherron Washington: right? But once they complete, it’s a wraparound program, they could come back and get different resources. So, excuse me, I’m working on the opportunity for them to actually go across the world to actually network with different possible mentors, job opportunities, et cetera. They get to pick what they want to do.
[00:54:09] Sherron Washington: So out, so the part of it is going here. Let’s tell 10 things that you want to do forever. What are you feeling that you love? And then we look at what’s realistic for them to achieve and match a mentor with that that could help them achieve that specific thing.
[00:54:25] Terri Hoffman: Okay, so it’s interesting listening to that just having gone through the Goldman Sachs 10 KSB program.
[00:54:33] Terri Hoffman: It sounds sort of like a mini version. Not even a mini version. It is. It’s the same, same components, but different purpose. In mind and, um, probably like a little bit of a different group because they don’t have to be, but like they’re not business owners going into it.
[00:54:51] Sherron Washington: They’re not business owners, no, it is the same idea.
[00:54:55] Sherron Washington: Think about growth opportunity and Goldman Sachs, yes. So they’re, they, they develop a growth opportunity and build a strategy marketing plan to get to it and then go off and do it, yes.
[00:55:06] Terri Hoffman: Yeah. I love that. I’m, I think it’s awesome. I have definitely told you through LinkedIn, I would love to be involved.
[00:55:13] Terri Hoffman: So if there’s an opportunity, I would, I definitely want to support you in that.
[00:55:19] Sherron Washington: I’m always looking for mentors. I know I’m going to have a ton of young women that believes they want to go into small business. Another thing is that they’re building this strategy to figure out if they really do. They, they may come to a space where I don’t want to do, this is not what I want.
[00:55:37] Sherron Washington: Which is good. That’s a good thing.
[00:55:40] Terri Hoffman: It is good. And I think that’s one of the most important things about that age is explore, right? Like, let allow yourself some space to talk to a lot of different people who do a lot of different things. Um, because I don’t know, I, I raised three girls through that stage and only one of them knew, I know what I want to do with my life. That’s rare, I don’t think that’s common. I don’t think that’s common. Yeah. I think the other two were more like, I, I don’t know what to do, right? So then I try to guide them to like, here’s a bunch of people you could talk to. Cause they don’t want to talk to their mom or dad about that. They want to talk to experts.
[00:56:23] Sherron Washington: Isn’t that weird? Isn’t it just the weirdest thing? I give recommendations, my husband’s like, just chill out a little bit. I’m like, no, but I know. And, I happen to be in my son’s industry. He’s in the events industry. I’m in need of this and I speak and he knows people that I know, but he won’t let me.
[00:56:46] Terri Hoffman: See, I have to tell my husband all the time. I don’t have a chill out button. That one doesn’t exist. I can’t chill. I can’t chill out. That’s funny. Well, um, thank you so much for joining me today. I know, I know you’re already into like Friday evening now at recording time. Um, I really appreciate you coming on and being generous with your time.
[00:57:09] Terri Hoffman: If there’s a quick way people can get in touch with you, if they’re interested in connecting with what would you suggest?
[00:57:13]
[00:57:14] Sherron Washington: So, if you want to, LinkedIn is always the easiest way.
[00:57:17] Sherron Washington: Sherron Washington. Just send me a message. Hey, how you doing? Saw you on the, on the podcast with Terri. Um, or, or, uh, Instagram, which is the SW Life, and that’s where I show my life 360. So you get to see all the glasses. And all the outfits. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, have affiliate relationships, marketing, affiliate relationships with the shoes and the glasses. Um, so it is it is business too. I’ve turned my fun into business. I’m gonna post anyway, so like why not? Um, so you could follow me there, SW life. And I’m on tiktok, but you know, don’t judge me… I try to keep up with my students I’m to stay current in the TikTok space, so I’m doing TikTok dances, um, and things like that.
[00:58:13] Sherron Washington: It’s, it’s pretty fun. So check me out there too.
[00:58:15] Terri Hoffman: I’m going to be checking that out. That’ll be funny. That’ll be good entertainment. Yeah. No. Like I said, thanks again. I really appreciate it. Guys, reach out to Sherron if you want to, if you want to connect more, um, we probably only touched on maybe like 50 percent of the ways they might be interested in engaging with you, but I would say for sure, if looking for a really dynamic speaker for an event, I would definitely connect with Sherron.
[00:58:42] Sherron Washington: Oh, just come talk to me if you need a resource, you want to drop some ideas, I’m definitely helpful in that area too.
[00:58:50] Terri Hoffman: Well, thank you. Enjoy. and enjoy the your weekend.
[00:58:53] Sherron Washington: Thank you.
[00:58:54] Terri Hoffman: Thank you for listening to B2B marketing methods. Please be sure to follow us on your favorite podcast channel and leave us a review. We’d love to hear from you and connect. You can find me on LinkedIn or visit our company website at marketingrefresh.com.
